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Money
Jan 5, 2010 22:54:26 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jan 5, 2010 22:54:26 GMT -5
Is there money in Star Trek? I got this from an old rec.arts.startrek.misc FAQ. Episode 04, Mudd’s Women: H.F. Mudd mentions that the miners are rich. This seems to imply some type of economic structure. Episode 27, Errand of Mercy: Kirk says that the Federation spent a lot of money on their training and it's time they got a return on their investment. Episode 29, Operation--Annihilate: Kirk says “I don't care what it takes or costs, just help him.” Episode 30, Catspaw: Lt. DeSalle says, “I'll bet credits to navy beans we can punch a hole in it.” Episode 34, Amok Time: Kirk says “Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?”, to which Spock begins to reply “twenty-two thousand, two hun...”. Might be hours, exercises, food quantity but seems to be money. Episode 35, The Doomsday Machine: Kirk says “Scotty, you’ve earned your pay for the week.” He says the same to Chekov in Who Mourns for Adonais?. Episode 39, Mirror, Mirror: Mirror-Kirk says “You want credits, Spock? I’ll make you a rich man.” I can think of a few they missed: Episode 42, The Trouble with Tribbles: Cyrano Jones is selling tribbles. He wants 10 credits for one, but the bartender barters it down to 6 credits. Episode 46, The Gamesters of Triskelion: The Providers bet on anything, for amounts ranging anywhere from 15 quatloos to 10,000 quatloos. However: Episode 30, Catspaw: Kirk rejects Korob’s bribe of many incredible gemstones, saying that he could manufacture them on the Enterprise and they are therefore valueless. However: Episode 19, Arena: Kirk states that he found “an incredible fortune in stones” while attempting to find a weapon against the Gorn. So diamonds apparently do have value. Episode 42, The Trouble with Tribbles: Spican flame gems are one of the wares that Cyrano Jones is trying to sell. So the Catspaw incident probably simply means that Kirk can not be bribed. Which begs the question: What good does it do to prove that there is money in Star Trek, if in fact Starfleet Personnel are basically unmotivated thereby?
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coffee
Lieutenant
"My chicken sandwich...and coffee." - James T. Kirk
Posts: 84
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 3:18:23 GMT -5
Post by coffee on Jan 6, 2010 3:18:23 GMT -5
I think the basic message of Star Trek was optimism.
And one of the ways Gene Roddenberry chose to express that was freedom from purely monetary concerns. Sure, there's money, but Starfleet personnel have all their needs met -- as well as a challenging, interesting, engaging job. Sure, it's difficult, but so rewarding!
That doesn't mean that there aren't people like Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones that want money. It just means that, perhaps, Starfleet screens out such psychological flaws.
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rflowers
Lieutenant
Beware Romulans bearing gifts!
Posts: 68
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 13:59:40 GMT -5
Post by rflowers on Jan 6, 2010 13:59:40 GMT -5
Like much of their continuity, they were just all over the place on it. (To be fair, most shows of the era didn't do any better; likewise with many shows today.)
What killed me was in TNG they played poker, but made it clear that money (as we knew it) did not exist for the Federation. What were they playing for? (Perhaps they were playing for duty shifts or vacation days or something... that would make sense.)
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 15:50:09 GMT -5
Post by slortar on Jan 6, 2010 15:50:09 GMT -5
Not to mention it also seems to vary from writer to writer, depending on the needs of the story. Does Kirk need to bribe a thug? Money exists! Does Kirk need to demonstrate how advanced the Federation has become to a starving primitive? The Federation has moved beyond such simple things. In the end it makes the various shows seem a bit schizophrenic.
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 16:13:31 GMT -5
Post by finarvyn on Jan 6, 2010 16:13:31 GMT -5
Federation uniforms don't have pockets, so the only way to use money is going to be if it has velcro on it like the phasers did. ;D
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 19:22:23 GMT -5
Post by thedungeondelver on Jan 6, 2010 19:22:23 GMT -5
There could be a couple other factors; the Federation economic system could be so well regulated that effectively only FedCreds are acceptable currency: trying to bribe someone with something they cannot deal in, in legal circles, is useless (e.g., if you came to my house and offered me a kilo of cocaine to do something for you I'd tell you to get bent - not because cocaine has no intrinsic value, but because it has no relative value to me).
Falconer, how canonical do you consider ST novels? The one and only I've ever read was The Koybashi Maru: in it, during a flashback a young Sulu visits his elderly grandfather and grandpa comments that it must have taken a lot of transporter credits to beam all the way around the world.
I think insofar as Uncle Gene wanted to believe in our better nature, the writers realized that if you pushed the whole "money isn't real in the 23rd century maaaaaaan" notion that too many people would just go "Oh come on" and tune out.
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Money
Jan 6, 2010 23:49:15 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jan 6, 2010 23:49:15 GMT -5
I don’t really expect to read any novels any time soon, but I have nothing against them. I’m somewhat interested in novels that predate the release of TMP. But declaring things canonical or uncanonical is not my cup of tea. For what it’s worth, your reference was interesting and welcome.
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Money
Jan 7, 2010 11:28:38 GMT -5
Post by Badelaire on Jan 7, 2010 11:28:38 GMT -5
The way I see it, there's a balance. I see the Federation as a place where, as long as things are running moderately smoothly on a world, no one is left homeless, no one goes hungry, and everyone gets at least a modest allotment of credits for clothing and other amenities. Star Fleet personnel, in particular, probably are paid well and have all their subsistence needs more than adequately covered. In addition, they do their jobs out of a sense of duty and loyalty to the Federation, so again, most right-minded crew aren't going to be bribed.
But your average private citizen, or an adventurer merchant on the fringes of space, could probably use a few more credits in their pocket. While no citizen may go hungry, perhaps some extra creds to acquire a few of the "finer things in life" would be nice.
Not to drag "real world politics" into the affair, but I see the Federation as fairly socialist; universal health care, universal retirement, appropriate welfare for anyone who can't work for one reason or another (although people would have jobs and work if possible). There's probably universal low-income housing as well if you can't afford a private home, and free public transportation within your population center (but no free rides to a nearby star system).
So for gaming purposes, PC crew shouldn't be interested in money, although enormous sums of credits might be a little tempting to some PCs, but for your average citizen, money is still a concern beyond simple subsistence living.
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Grendelwulf
Lt. Commander
Second star on the...no... To Infinity and..no.. Ah-ha! Never give up, Never surrender! THAT'S it!
Posts: 147
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Money
Jan 7, 2010 12:06:08 GMT -5
Post by Grendelwulf on Jan 7, 2010 12:06:08 GMT -5
So for gaming purposes, PC crew shouldn't be interested in money, although enormous sums of credits might be a little tempting to some PCs, but for your average citizen, money is still a concern beyond simple subsistence living. I agree. That early 21st century antique las-sabre has to cost something for the collector. Or that rare 1st printing of Da Vinci Code... 23rd century subspace auction channels must do really well. Ciao! Grendelwulf
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Money
Jan 7, 2010 15:12:14 GMT -5
Post by thedungeondelver on Jan 7, 2010 15:12:14 GMT -5
You know, something else that just sprang to mind: In The Wrath of Khan, doesn't McCoy mention that he "knows a smuggler" who brings Romulan Ale in periodically for him? Point being, if you smuggle, you're probably doing so at least in part to avoid tariffs or taxes on what you're smuggling, which would indicate a pretty considerable part of a given bureaucracy was dedicated to money and the managing thereof.
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Grendelwulf
Lt. Commander
Second star on the...no... To Infinity and..no.. Ah-ha! Never give up, Never surrender! THAT'S it!
Posts: 147
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Money
Jan 7, 2010 15:17:49 GMT -5
Post by Grendelwulf on Jan 7, 2010 15:17:49 GMT -5
The Romulan Ale Incident could be more of a fact due to the political disagreements between the two powers. They are not comrades within the same union, so movement of goods between them would be illegal by nature. But, I am sure the smugglers would still need a bit more incentive in the form of money...it's doubtful they did it for the fun of it.
Ciao! Grendelwulf
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My Name is Mudd
Ensign
"Gentlemen, I'm simply an honest businessman."
Posts: 16
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Money
Jan 9, 2010 16:01:49 GMT -5
Post by My Name is Mudd on Jan 9, 2010 16:01:49 GMT -5
My personal stance, is that the TOS had a wide range of currency in use - Federation Credits, Kingon Darsek, Triskelion Quatloo, and so on - but at some point, Gene wanted to do an overly optimistic future, and ditched money out right! As nice as utopia is, it makes for a really boring setting.
I prefer the notion that money was always in use in the Federation and at some point, the people of the Federation tries to live above greed and materialism because of the advent of patter-replication and limitless power, along with a communal frontier mindset. With all of life's necessitates provided for, I see money used to pay for amenities: eating at restaurants, obtaining non-replicated goods (art, antiques), space craft, and such. I see Federation Credits as an abstract IOU, so Federation Citizens have buying power with a wide range of currencies, based on the resources of the Federation. So if Riker buys Romulan ale from a bootlegger, the smuggler can always count on the Federation to backup the credits with Federation produced Dilithium or Latinum, or some other non-replicatable material (even though he got the Credits from an illicit trade). Without the cost of living expenses, people don't need to be payed as much.
I see that vices have not escaped humanity, with gambling, holosuite sex, and live prostitution as a national pass time.
Well, that is how I see it.
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coffee
Lieutenant
"My chicken sandwich...and coffee." - James T. Kirk
Posts: 84
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Money
Jan 9, 2010 16:12:52 GMT -5
Post by coffee on Jan 9, 2010 16:12:52 GMT -5
I don't recall anyone in TOS/TAS saying that there was NO money. But none of them seem very interested in it.
Let's recall that Gene Roddenberry served in WWII in the pacific. Like the characters, he was part of a military organization. And he was deployed. Aboard ship, all your needs are met -- what do you need money for? And since space is dangerous, it's kind of silly to start thinking about your retirement.
So, just let Starfleet take care of the money (saving it for you retirement, if you live that long) and just get on with your duties.
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Money
Jan 9, 2010 19:52:58 GMT -5
Post by blackbat242 on Jan 9, 2010 19:52:58 GMT -5
Having served aboard a USN ship while in the USMC, I can tell you that there are a lot of things to spend money on... especially when you hit port.
That said, matter replication seems to have been a pretty new technology in TOS (later, non-cannon sources indicate that the modernization Enterprise got in 2256-59 (between Pike's first & second 5-year missions as Captain) (Commodore Robert April had Enterprise's first 5-year) was when replicator technology (based on transporter tech) greatly reduced requirements for on-board food/water storage & life support facilities (waste material is fully recycled via the replicators).
This allowed the crew bump from ~230 to 420 in the Constitution class, and more advanced matter/anti-matter power plants provided the increased power for not only the replicators, but the new phasers (replacing the laser cannon) and more powerful warp drives.
The replicator technology is described as being first tested in 2249, and first installed in Starfleet ships in 2252, whereas the first season of TOS is 2265-66.
Thus, during TOS/TAS, there is still much left of the old "pre-mass-replication" economy, where money was important.
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coffee
Lieutenant
"My chicken sandwich...and coffee." - James T. Kirk
Posts: 84
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Money
Jan 9, 2010 20:31:05 GMT -5
Post by coffee on Jan 9, 2010 20:31:05 GMT -5
Having served aboard a USN ship while in the USMC, I can tell you that there are a lot of things to spend money on... especially when you hit port. Agreed, but in a way, this reinforces my point: How many times did we see the Enterprise actually make port? I mean in the same sense you would have in the Marines? Very rarely, as I recall. Strange planets don't count, because being outside the Federation they wouldn't have the same system of exchange in place that we do in our world (whereas when you're a Marine, every port in the world will take US dollars...) My point here is that we never see the crew "at home". We only see them out there, where no man has gone before (i.e., where they don't take Visa). So therefore it's tough to say whether money is as commonplace in the Federation as it is in our world.
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