vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Jan 9, 2010 16:02:37 GMT -5
You know, I am currently reading David Weber's Storm From the Shadows and I thought I would post my thoughts on the Honor Harrington universe vs. the Star Trek universe for comments.
In many ways, I think Weber did interstellar space travel and combat right. Unlike Trek, the Honorverse is based on human expansion, thus all of the planets and races are human. Therefore, all of the weapons systems are varying tech levels and degrees of similar systems -- missiles for long-range combat, lasers and grasers for close combat, and anti-missiles and laser clusters for defense.
interstellar travel and combat mostly occur within the hyper limit of stars, because Weber rightly concluded that the odds of ships "bumping into" each other in interstellar space were next to nil. Thus, almost all combat is near stars and inhabited planets, which is where ships would encounter each other. Not only that, but travel in hyper space can only occur outside of the star's hyper limit, due to gravitational effects of the star on the local area of space. And since everyone is using grav waves to travel between stars (sort of like currents in the ocean), major combat doesn't generally occur within grav waves.
In Star Trek, on the other hand, ships seem to be encountering each other in interstellar space all of the time. Now warp drive does not limit you to grav waves, so I guess its possible, but it still does not change odds of chance encounters. With 12 or 14 starships in TOS, given the vast volume of Federation space, the odds of encountering another starship in the course of a 5 year mission would be astronomical.
The other thing is the mechanics of combat. Star Trek combat seems much closer. The ships are in visual range, which would seem too close for the technology. Compare the external visuals from TOS to the ranges in SFB. In the show, ships appeared to be within a few kilometers of each other. Any more than that and ships are at best points of light, and at worst invisible to the human eye. In Honorverse combat, on the other hand, missile combat takes place at millions of kilometers and laser/graser at less than a million.
Anybody read any of Weber's Harrington books? What do you think of the thoughts here?
--vr
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Post by Falconer on Jan 9, 2010 16:36:35 GMT -5
I guess it depends on whether or not it’s really about space, the future, and science to you. To me, Star Trek’s spaceships and planets and alien species are just window dressing. To be sure, the exoticism of the window dressing is a large part of what makes Star Trek so fascinating. But most of the fun of the stories comes from really just treating the Enterprise as a ship in the sea. Space is only as vast as the sea: the next port is always just days away, and on your journey you are likely to run into pirates or traders. Entire planets are really only as vast as a single town or castle, and the aliens who populate them are really just stand-ins for humans of other cultures. I, for one, am comfortable sticking with this familiar format.
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Post by blackbat242 on Jan 9, 2010 20:14:20 GMT -5
A minor note is that "there are only 12 like it in the fleet" simply means that there are 12 Constitution-class Heavy Cruisers.
It says nothing about earlier, less-powerful Heavy Cruisers, or about Light Cruisers/Destroyers/Frigates/etc.
One class that is very canon is the Daedalus class exploratory cruisers. While they came into service about 100 years before TOS, several are mentioned in episodes (USS Archon, etc)... and some are still in service as auxiliaries and other non-front-line uses.
By the end of TOS, more Constitution-class ships are being built to increase the size of Starfleet.
This is mainly in response to the increased threat from the Romulans, Gorn, Tholians, etc... but also to serve the expanding number/area of systems in the Federation.
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vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Jan 10, 2010 15:22:10 GMT -5
I guess it depends on whether or not it’s really about space, the future, and science to you. To me, Star Trek’s spaceships and planets and alien species are just window dressing. To be sure, the exoticism of the window dressing is a large part of what makes Star Trek so fascinating. But most of the fun of the stories comes from really just treating the Enterprise as a ship in the sea. Space is only as vast as the sea: the next port is always just days away, and on your journey you are likely to run into pirates or traders. Entire planets are really only as vast as a single town or castle, and the aliens who populate them are really just stand-ins for humans of other cultures. I, for one, am comfortable sticking with this familiar format. Exactly my point. I don't know if you have ever read Weber's HH series, but she (Harrington) is loosely based on Horatio Hornblower from C.S. Forster's series. In the Honorverse, starships are loosely based on sailing slips of the 16th and 17th century, cannon armaments are replaced with missiles and even arranged along the broadside of the ships, "ships of the line" from Forster's era have been replaced with "ships of the wall," to account for three dimensional combat. However, Weber really did a good job (as good as, IMHO, David Drake in Hammer's Slammers) of working out the technology and how advances to it drove and responded to the interrelationships of the various "nations." Now admittedly, because it is a book series and one with a single author with a single vision), though a rather large one, I haven't detected any of the major plot snafus (like the "can't transport with shields up...or can you?") Now, I guess taking the analogy a step further, Star Trek could represent modern-day powered warships, rather than the sailing ships. That said, we do agree on one thing. It is all window dressing, a canvas on which the storyteller delivers his message. The first thing you look for is, in the words of Ronald D. Moore, when discussing Battlestar Galactica, you really care about the characters. The second thing is how the storyteller gets his message out. And TOS was one of the best at this.
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Post by finarvyn on Jan 21, 2010 14:59:37 GMT -5
I think that the Honorverse overall has a similar feel to Star Trek TOS, but that the order of magnitudes are different. Enterprise phaser banks and torpedo banks are few and powerful, and there is really no mention of missiles being used in combat (unless you count the Kzinti v. Klingon information from TAS, or at least the way that SFB interpreted this info from TAS). In the Honorverse they might launch hundreds of missiles or have battles involving dozens of ships.
The Trek scale is just so very different, since there are only a dozen or so Heavy Cruisers in action at the time of TOS. Otherwise, I think there are some definite parallels in terms of the feel of the two. Perhaps the Honorverse is more similar to Traveller or (new) Battlestar Galactica than TOS.
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Post by Ronin84 on Jan 21, 2010 15:50:32 GMT -5
I love the Honorverse I have re-read that entire series so many times it's ridiculous.
I can see some of the similarities but really I think they stand on their own, when I read I don't think about Star Trek or Star Wars at all...I think more about the old cartoon Starblazers to be honest.
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Post by finarvyn on Jan 21, 2010 16:59:27 GMT -5
And I'm not trying to suggest that Weber ripped off anyone's ideas or anything. I know that some times I'm in "a Star Trek mood" or "a Tolkien mood" or "an Amber mood" or whatever and like to find books or movies that have a similar feel to them. (I can only read any given book a finite number of times before I need to do something else for a while. Then I can come back later.)
So I was just trying to look for which types of scifi most remind me of the Honorverse. :-)
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vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Jan 25, 2010 19:24:10 GMT -5
I think that the Honorverse overall has a similar feel to Star Trek TOS, but that the order of magnitudes are different. Enterprise phaser banks and torpedo banks are few and powerful I think they are too powerful. Especially in light of the discussion about speeds at which combat would take place. Either weapons (and sensor) ranges would have to be millions upon millions of kilometers, or ships would pass through weapons ranges in fractions of a second. Agreed. In fact, I think that is the difference between ST and BSG/HH. The latter two are a natural extension of humanity today, with all its warts and baggage, BSG moreso than HH (of course, BSG was an extreme worst-case for humanity). And the dozens of ships in Starfleet just wouldn't be able to effectively patrol the volume of space that consitutes the Federation. After all, Honorverse battles, especially the later books had hundreds of ships (one side had 350 of the wall, plus escorts) firing tens of thousands of missiles... They needed that many ships to picket star systems as well as having an offensive force when needed...
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vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Jan 25, 2010 20:37:26 GMT -5
I love the Honorverse I have re-read that entire series so many times it's ridiculous. Dude, me too. It's become one of my favorite pieces of military Sci-Fi. At the risk of taking this thread further off topic, I would have to say my favorite Mil Sci Fi are (in no particular order): - Robert Heinlein - Starship Troopers (*not* the movie)
- David Drake - The Hammer's Slammers series
- David Weber - The Honor Harrington series
- John Ringo - The Legacy of Aldenata series
- David Weber - The Empire of Man series.
I'm sure there are others, but these come to the forefront of my pea brain at the moment...
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Post by Ronin84 on Jan 25, 2010 20:48:45 GMT -5
I love the Honorverse I have re-read that entire series so many times it's ridiculous. Dude, me too. It's become one of my favorite pieces of military Sci-Fi. At the risk of taking this thread further off topic, I would have to say my favorite Mil Sci Fi are (in no particular order): - Robert Heinlein - Starship Troopers (*not* the movie)
- David Drake - The Hammer's Slammers series
- David Weber - The Honor Harrington series
- John Ringo - The Legacy of Aldenata series
- David Weber - The Empire of Man series.
I'm sure there are others, but these come to the forefront of my pea brain at the moment... Loved Starship Troopers (not the movie!) The Hammers Slammers, I just never got that into....never did it for me. John Ringo....gotta say his writing style really turned me off, I just didn't buy some of his dialogue nor his stories. Sorry The Empire of Man is not one I have read so I will keep my eyes open for it! I really liked SM Stirling's Draka series as well as the Dies the Fire stuff. Talking about de-railing I could go with Poul Anderson or H Beam Piper or for me the grand dad EE Doc Smith, his Family D'Lambert stuff I grew up on, not to mention the Lensman. Ok sorry for the de-rail!!!
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vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Jan 26, 2010 16:31:54 GMT -5
The Hammers Slammers, I just never got that into....never did it for me. I've always loved it (ask Finarvyn). I *really* liked it after a) I got out of the military myself, and b) I read about how he wrote the first several stories as unconscious therapy from his time in Vietnam. No apology needed. Point of fact, I have never been able to get into his fantasy stuff. There are four books in the series: March Upcountry March to the Sea March to the Stars We Few The ebooks are available on Baen's free library (see below). Didn't Stirling cowrite with James Doohan? (Note to Falconer: Like how I am managing to keep this on the very edge of the Trek meme??? ) This thread was pre-derailed for your convenience... And I know that most Trek geeks are avid (ravenous? voracious?) readers, but not knowing how many of us read from electronic media, I humbly submit the following links. Alas, no Star Trek books...But Baen Books does maintain a free library ( www.baen.com/library) of science fiction books for download. They are usually the first few books of a series. However, before Jim Baen died, he started releasing a CD full of ebooks with his more popular authors, both other books by that author and books by new authors. These CDs were made available under an open source/creative commons license, and are available from baencd.thefifthimperium.com/. You can download the entire cd and burn it or browse the cd on the site and download individual books. The books come in a variety of formats, including mobi/epub, MS reader, html, rtf, etc. Hope someone finds a series they enjoy.
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