vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
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Post by vulcanridr on Feb 7, 2010 21:18:23 GMT -5
As I recall, didn't they say around the time of TMP that the Enterprise was "the first ship to complete her 5 year mission"?
How is this possible, since, according to wikipedia (and cited from startrek.com and other places) that Robert April was Enterprise's first captain, and that Chris Pike "commanded [her] for a decade." I've tried to match up these two statements, but it doesn't compute.
Am I missing something here or did I hallucinate that comment?
--vr
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 7, 2010 22:25:09 GMT -5
I think that different sources have made various statements, and that those do not always match up. I'd have to go back and check to see which things were claimed by which sources, then judge each for "canon" value.
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Post by aramis on Feb 7, 2010 23:54:18 GMT -5
April didn't complete a 5 year mission.
Option 1 Pike took her back in for overhaul at least twice, neither more than 4.9 years apart. Say, every 3 years for an overhaul. 3 shorter missions, in 10 years.
Kirk was the first to take her out and not return for overhaul.
Option 2 Pike was the first captain to complete a 5YM, and he did so in the Enterprise.
My choice would be option 1.
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Post by Falconer on Feb 8, 2010 7:24:47 GMT -5
Kirk's voiceover in the unaired version of Where No Man Has Gone Before says something to the effect that, prior to that episode, starships had only done routine (police/supply) missions; that WNMHGB was the beginning of a more open-ended mission to explore/seek out/boldly go beyond the limits of human knowledge. The title of the episode makes more sense in that light (though it is still also a double entendre with reference to Mitchell going where no man has gone before in another sense).
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Post by slortar on Feb 8, 2010 8:40:13 GMT -5
I'd always thought of the Enterprise's 5 year mission in the context of what Falconer said--I figured there were a ton of Starfleet vessels out there, but Starfleet would occasionally single out a few and tell them "Get lost, find something cool. Come back in 5 years and tell us about it."
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 8, 2010 10:22:06 GMT -5
Star Trek TMP seems to imply that the crew of the Enterprise were all heroes for actually completing their 5-year mission. This would imply that either it had never happened before or perhaps happened very infrequently. I'd have to check on the April/Pike thing, but I'm pretty sure that in THE MAKING OF STAR TREK Gene Roddenberry was brainstorming names for Captains and both April and Pike were on the list. Pike was selected as captain for the first pilot ("The Cage") and there was no mention of April at that point. They switched captains from Pike to Kirk when they switched actors from Hunter to Shatner. Pike was mentioned in "The Menagerie", so we know that he is canon, but April wasn't mentioned until TAS (in "The Counter-clock Incident) so I'm not sure how "official" this part of the chronology should be, from a TOS standpoint. (I assume that April wasn't mentioned in TOS because origianlly Pike and April were the same person.) Beyond TAS, the only other mention of April that I can think of was on enovel (FINAL FRONITER, I think -- it has a red cover but I'm not near my bookshelf) and again I doubt that counts as canon TOS. Of course, the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Chronology have brought most of this stuff in as being "official", but I suspect as TOS purists we have highter standards.
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 8, 2010 10:30:46 GMT -5
I figured there were a ton of Starfleet vessels out there, but Starfleet would occasionally single out a few and tell them "Get lost, find something cool. Come back in 5 years and tell us about it." The problem is that, while Starfleet might have had a decent number of scout/destroyer/lesser ships, it was established early on that there were only about a dozen "Heavy Cruiser" ships like Enterprise. Plus, we know that the attrition rate for those ships was pretty high (Constellation, Intrepid, and others that were destroyed during TOS) so it's highly unlikely that too many Enterprise-like starships survived a 5-year mission. It's also possible that only Heavy Cruiser starships were actually equipped to handle five years in space, and that the lesser ships might have been sent out on 6-month missions or the like. (I'm not sure what the duration of a modern-day submarine mission might be, but the 6-months-on and 6-months-off number sticks in my brain for some reason. For smaller ships it might be just like that.)
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Post by aramis on Feb 8, 2010 11:27:08 GMT -5
Modern subs can be sent on missions up to a year; that's the limit of the food storage capabilities, and even then, that's rationing. Normal deployments are 6 months for boomers. The freezers are impressive. (I've gotten to tour a couple subs.... was an NJROTC cadet in the 80's.)
given the tech used, it seems pretty reasonable that 3-4 year missions with 1-2 year deployments might be doable.
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 8, 2010 14:28:04 GMT -5
Given the tech used, it seems pretty reasonable that 3-4 year missions with 1-2 year deployments might be doable. But probably not five year missions, then. Your experience seems to confirm the notion that 5-year missions would be reserved for Heavy Cruisers, with their additional resources, etc.
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Grendelwulf
Lt. Commander
Second star on the...no... To Infinity and..no.. Ah-ha! Never give up, Never surrender! THAT'S it!
Posts: 147
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Post by Grendelwulf on Feb 8, 2010 15:52:31 GMT -5
Ah, but it's not like the Enterprise couldn't swing by a Starbase for repairs, restocking, etc. If anything, Voyager would have broken the Big E's record. Nasty thought, isn't it?
Besides, I recall Paramount using the reason of the new uniform badges (all Enterprise style) being decided upon in honour of the Enterprise's achievement. It, of course, was a weak excuse so their costuming department would never have to use anything but ONE starfleet style badge.
Ciao! Grendelwulf
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Post by aramis on Feb 8, 2010 22:19:12 GMT -5
Given the tech used, it seems pretty reasonable that 3-4 year missions with 1-2 year deployments might be doable. But probably not five year missions, then. Your experience seems to confirm the notion that 5-year missions would be reserved for Heavy Cruisers, with their additional resources, etc. Well, consider that it appears from the season 3 dialog that there are "now" aft phasers, but aft phasers would have been REALLY useful in several season one and two episodes, it seems 1701 took a few weeks downtime for an upgrade from a CA to a CAR... but the question becomes just how long does the R refit take? Using SFB, it's small enough to be below the threshold of F&E (or Fed Space), and it merely requires a campaign turn under SFB... say a month... I'd say that is short enough to not "break" the mission. But just how bad off are the other 13? One's blown up by being rammed down the planet killer, one's lost to the tholians broken space, one's crippled by Enterprise, another left lifeless. Two were destroyed before season one. That's 6. I expect the federation's going to have a few reserved for showing the flag around the core of the federation, and being the defense reserve. Call it 4? That leaves 4 more on mission. It's reasonable to have a 80% need to return for extended repairs and/or massive crew replenishment over a 5 year span. 93%, no so much. But we know Pike commanded her 10 years without a 5YM...
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Grendelwulf
Lt. Commander
Second star on the...no... To Infinity and..no.. Ah-ha! Never give up, Never surrender! THAT'S it!
Posts: 147
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Post by Grendelwulf on Feb 9, 2010 8:37:41 GMT -5
Inasmuch as I hate to use Enterprise as 'canon' because it is temporally tainted, the episode In A Mirror Darkly showed the Defiant having aft phasers.
Of course, it could be argued that the only thing close to canon was the Defiant itself because it came from TOS. Ok, it's not canon, but it was nice seeing a Constitution-class starship in action again.
Another thought, referencing Kirk's statement of there being only 12 ships like the Big E in the fleet. Maybe, there were only twelve on 5YR missions, while other ships like her went about standard duties.
Ciao! Grendelwulf
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Post by aramis on Feb 9, 2010 15:51:35 GMT -5
The problem with In A Mirror Darkly is that it's NOT of need the same Defiant that Prime-TOS Kirk boarded.
It's also quite possible that a refit was applied to some earlier than others.
Further, I doubt that the line "A starship! There's only 12 like her in the fleet!" refers to the mission.
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Grendelwulf
Lt. Commander
Second star on the...no... To Infinity and..no.. Ah-ha! Never give up, Never surrender! THAT'S it!
Posts: 147
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Post by Grendelwulf on Feb 9, 2010 16:13:28 GMT -5
Most likely true.
Another query: Why would any military commander actually say how many there were? Could it be misinformation? Of course, I am thinking with a mistrusting 21st century brain and not the utopiac mindset of ST. Shame on me...
Ciao! Grendelwulf
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Post by aramis on Feb 9, 2010 20:01:08 GMT -5
Most likely true. Another query: Why would any military commander actually say how many there were? Could it be misinformation? Of course, I am thinking with a mistrusting 21st century brain and not the utopiac mindset of ST. Shame on me... Ciao! Grendelwulf Same reason the CVAN 65 Enterprise had, for at least half a decade, the semi-official motto "The Biggest and the Best is Back" for being 3" longer than her classmates. (yes, 3 INCHES.) Same reason an A10 pilot from Eilson bragged, "My bird's been in service longer than I've been alive, and is still in fighting trim!" The sense of being elite is a major part of military and paramilitary esprit d'corps. Even ROTC and JROTC units attempt to create "elite" subgroups for cadets to aspire to membership in. (Exhibition drill with arms, anyone?)
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