vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
|
Post by vulcanridr on Mar 7, 2010 18:59:10 GMT -5
I was just thinking about it, and you know, Richard Daystrom's M-5 project must have been seriously important to Starfleet. Figure that the episode occurred at the end of season 2, they may or may not have known about the Exeter at that point, Constellation had been destroyed, Intrepid as well. This leaves 12 heavy cruisers in Starfleet, then they pull Enterprise, Lexington, Hood, Potemkin and Excalibur off station to participate in war games. That is nearly 50% of Starfleet's "big guns" that are not on their normal patrols. Consider the time it would take to alert and assemble the ships, probably several months.
And then, the M-5 destroys or damages all 33% of the fleet's strength. All four ships will at least be putting in some time in the yard for repair.
From a strategic standpoint, this episode was probably the closest to a catastrophe for the fleet.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Mar 7, 2010 23:43:31 GMT -5
A lot depends on whether or not one accepts that there are smaller line ships in the fleet. (IE, the SFTM destroyers)
If there are no destroyers, then yes, it's a huge hit.
It there are destroyers, then it's probably only 1/10 or less of the operational fleet; this also makes it important in that it is being tested on the biggest, baddest thing Starfleet has, and they're making damned sure it doesn't go rogue by sending enough force to destroy it. (They didn't count on it being able to cut down the ships as fast as it did.)
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 8, 2010 1:08:14 GMT -5
I think the SFTM destroyers/scouts look cool, but to me Star Trek’s “The Twelve Starships” are like Battlestar Galactica’s “The Five Battlestars”. I like to imagine that they really are the only serious ships the Federation fields. I think OSFB had it right, that there would be a handful of Light Cruisers still in commission, left over from the days of the Earth-Romulan War, with constant upgrades but nevertheless useful for little other than emergency defense.
In my opinion (explored in another thread), there are only 10 Starships left at the time of UC. That means they have committed exactly half of the fleet to wargames at Starbase 6! It is obvious from the episode that they had very high hopes for M-5. The whole episode is kind of absurd, really, although it is enjoyable. I think it is meant to be a little absurd, so the audience will all come to emphatically agree that man will never be replaced by computers.
In general, I get the sense that the Starships don’t regularly assume a military posture. It is peacetime. The Federation has 8 Outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone; they have Deep Space Station K-7 within the Klingon Treaty Zone; but no one expects them to break their treaties. It never happens like in the movies where something is always attacking Earth out of nowhere. So they keep the Starships busy zipping about on errands and patrols. Thus incoming threats like the Doomsday Machine or Nomad get detected and dealt with long before reaching the core worlds.
On a side note: from this episode I get the impression that Lexington is the flagship, not just for the purposes of the task force in UC, but the flag of all the Starships in general. How does that sit with you? I like it; I can think of no better candidate based on the information we are given on-screen. It is probably not a very important question, however it is prompted by the new movie which designates Enterprise the “Federation Flagship”. But the flagship ought to be commanded by a flag officer. Regards.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Mar 8, 2010 1:53:17 GMT -5
See, I think the Lex is the Home Fleet flagship. I also think that Enterprise and Intrepid likely were the only Starship Class (read Constitution Class) ships in the Exploration Fleet. I'd put two more each in the Klingon and Romulan Borders, and 4x as many DD's in each, and a pair of scouts in each.
I also think 12 ships isn't enough at all to even make a pretense of a fleet... let alone be the end result after the Fed-Romular war. If indeed there are 12 starships in the starfleet, then essentially, there is no fleet. All 12 are then just enough to picket the core.... it's just too big a space, and their sensors too short, for a single ship to cover the border, even if one reduces the border to 500LY and fits it all inside the arm. The apparent sensor distance is about 2-3LY from what I can tell, with some means of detecting warp vessels longer than that.
|
|
|
Post by blackbat242 on Mar 8, 2010 2:04:22 GMT -5
The Rom-Earth War was some 100 years earlier... I doubt any ships from then would still be in service, nor that no major vessels would have been built in the interim.
I hold to "12 Modern Heavy Cruisers"*, but a number (8-12) of ~30+ year-old less-powerful/slower heavy cruisers, and about twice that in light cruisers/frigates (~24 of both combined), and around 50 destroyers/scouts of all types, old & new.
The older heavy cruisers would be stationed at starbases near the frontiers, and the lighter units spread between major systems & the starbases.
Scouts are "roamers", and are single-purpose exploration/examination types.
Thus only the Constitution class cruisers are multi-purpose, wide-ranging assets... and thus are the primary "boldly go" units.
*the original set are around 20 years old, but were extensively modernized between The Cage (first pilot) and Where No Man Has Gone Before (second pilot).
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 8, 2010 8:41:58 GMT -5
See, I think the Lex is the Home Fleet flagship. I also think that Enterprise and Intrepid likely were the only Starship Class (read Constitution Class) ships in the Exploration Fleet. Could be. Constellation could have been on an exploration mission, and by the way, now that I think about it, it was commanded by a flag officer. I didn’t take Intrepid to be on an exploration mission, but rather that it was directed specifically to investigate the space amoeba in response to loss of contact with a system. We’ve been back and forth before about whether Enterprise’s five-year mission is absolutely unique or standard fare for Starships. I don’t know, Enterprise always seems to be the only one anywhere near the Romulan Neutral Zone.
|
|
|
Post by lstyer on Mar 8, 2010 19:31:53 GMT -5
I also think 12 ships isn't enough at all to even make a pretense of a fleet... No way. It takes more ships than that to form a credible fleet in the Earth's oceans. The idea that 12 of any Trek ship short of a Doomsday Machine would be a significant on an interstellar scale is nuts. But the scale in Trek was always a little off kilter.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Mar 8, 2010 19:47:57 GMT -5
1g of antimatter delivered to surface will kill a civiization. Even a shutte can do that, lstyer. The question for fleets isn't threat (A runabout is a potential kill-the-dinos capable event), but sensor grids. how much coverage, how sensitive, sensor overlaps, etc... essentially range vs volume.
|
|
vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
|
Post by vulcanridr on Mar 8, 2010 20:14:45 GMT -5
I think the SFTM destroyers/scouts look cool, but to me Star Trek’s “The Twelve Starships” are like Battlestar Galactica’s “The Five Battlestars”. I like to imagine that they really are the only serious ships the Federation fields. I think OSFB had it right, that there would be a handful of Light Cruisers still in commission, left over from the days of the Earth-Romulan War, with constant upgrades but nevertheless useful for little other than emergency defense. Like Trek, depends on what canon you use. The original BSG had 12 battlestars, one for each colony. But I digress. (Sorry, I just finished RDM's BSG again...) Okay, even given a number of DDs/SCs, you figure, based on their design, they are still going to represent a significant portion of the cost of a CA, say, 60-70% of the cost. Therefore, figure that there are maybe a couple of dozen SC/DD class ships. Given this, Starfleet is still spread pretty thin, especially considering the fleet they put together for the aborted battle over Organia in An Errand of Mercy. Far too thin to pull half (or nearly half) of their heavy firepower off patrol for several months. I know you maintain 10, but both The Omega Glory and The Tholian Web happened after UC. Thus, Starfleet hadn't lost Exeter or Defiant. Now Exeter could go either way, as to whether or not Starfleet had already written her off...After all, it was the next episode. UC is still one of my favorites, because it was one of the few that had interaction between multiple starships. However, if you remember, the first victim of the M-5 was a robotic freighter. I would get the feeling that they are, like carrier battle groups during peacetime, out showing the flag, among other things...Maybe moreso. However, a serious and secondary consideration would be that they are available in case it drops in the pot. That you could deploy a fleet of starships, even in a firefighter role. And the huge and vast distances involved, could take a long time for ships to respond to a situation. Pulling that much firepower (and that's what it boils down to, a starship is a weapons platform) to the core system for this test is leaving yourself dangerously uncovered. Basically it is a Command Cruiser in SFB parlance. I can live with this. Although most cases I have seen, a command ship of that type has a separate bridge and facilities for the flag officer (ironically enough, the flag bridge), and the ship still has a captain in command, rather than the flag officer sitting in the center seat. That said, I can live with that. Although, that would imply more fleet activity than is generally displayed by Trek.
|
|
vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
|
Post by vulcanridr on Mar 8, 2010 20:28:32 GMT -5
The Rom-Earth War was some 100 years earlier... I doubt any ships from then would still be in service, nor that no major vessels would have been built in the interim. I disagree. If you look (forgive me, Falconer) at the later series, you have the Galaxys and Defiants fighting right along side of the Kirk-era Excelsior and Miranda-class ships. Those ships were roughly 100 years old. I can see early (not necessarily Romulan war era) ships still being in service. Even Daedelus class...
|
|
vulcanridr
Lieutenant
I am in your Enterprise, haxoring your tubes...
Posts: 64
|
Post by vulcanridr on Mar 8, 2010 20:47:09 GMT -5
1g of antimatter delivered to surface will kill a civiization. Even a shutte can do that, lstyer. The question for fleets isn't threat (A runabout is a potential kill-the-dinos capable event), but sensor grids. how much coverage, how sensitive, sensor overlaps, etc... essentially range vs volume. While partially true, aramis, Sensors Don't Shoot Back. And when you consider that the stations between the Romulans and the Federation were manned and armed and still had to holler for help. Suppose the Romulans would have sent more than one warbird? I maintain that they would have probably bested the Enterprise as well as taking out three or four outposts by using tactics General Chang did in TUC.
|
|
|
Post by lstyer on Mar 8, 2010 21:05:03 GMT -5
1g of antimatter delivered to surface will kill a civiization. Even a shutte can do that, lstyer. Well, I'm not sure that TOS-era ships had the capacity to shoot antimatter at planets, but, yeah, a single ship almost certainly has the capacity to wipe out a civilization. But I was thinking more in terms of how many ships it would take just to run defense over an interstellar nation rather than how many it would take to conquer an interstellar nation. All that said, the ability to wipe a civilization on a single planet doesn't necessarily translate to the ability to effectively occupy even a city that has any kind of weaponry, and in that case a single shuttlecraft would certainly fall short. Not just sensors, but ability to get where you're needed. Having one ship at each of a dozen locations in an interstellar nation necessarily must leave hundreds if not thousands of locations without a ship, and that's putting aside situations in which more than one ship is necessary and completely ignoring simple down time. Does anyone here know much about law enforcement? About how big a modern day city could you effectively patrol with 12 police cars? When TOS was in production, Earth's population was apparently in the neighborhood of 3 and a half billion. Even if we population was severely decreased by the Eugenics Wars and/or World War III, within a couple hundred years with significant technological advancement, there have to be at least a couple billion people on Earth. Why should we assume there aren't at least a couple billion each on the various "core worlds" -- Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar. Then throw in a lot of colonies and such. The population of the Federation has to be huge in comparison to a modern nation. I guess that population would be somewhat more "concentrated" in that it would largely be on planets and not in the empty space between, but that still has to leave a hell of a lot of locations.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 8, 2010 22:53:52 GMT -5
Like Trek, depends on what canon you use. The original BSG had 12 battlestars, one for each colony. But I digress. (Sorry, I just finished RDM's BSG again...) When I say Battlestar Galactica I definitely am referring to TOS. I do like the idea of Twelve Battlestars, since it is implied that each member of the Council of the Twelve commands one (at least, President Adar, Count Baltar, and Commander Adama all seem to), but there is no evidence to back that up. Adama is the only member of the Council who actually wears military dress and bears a military rank. And Adar, while clearly Commander-in-Chief in his role as President, obviously couldn’t possibly command a Battlestar if his life depended on it. If the Battlestars have been in commission for the past 500 yahrens of the 1000 Yahren War, then surely they were in ongoing construction and were constantly destroyed, as was the case with Commander Kronus’s command, Rycon, destroyed at the Battle of the Cosmara Archipelago, and of course Peguasus is presumed destroyed at the Battle of Molecay. At the Battle of Cimtar (pilot episode), five Battlestars are shown (and the soundtrack gives the title “The Five Battlestars” for the iconic track): Atlantia, Galactica, Pacifica, Triton, and Acropolis.Plus, if you basically give each of the Twelve Colonies its own Battlestar, you rob them of their individuality. I can’t imagine Borellians crewing, let alone building, their own Battlestar, for example. Also, we know there were Gemonese (“No wonder those little buggers are such good card players!”) as well as Capricans serving aboard Galactica, so it isn’t likely that Galactica is the “Caprican Battlestar”. But, I digress. Oh, wait, let me tie it back to Star Trek! Battlestar Galactica’s Borellian Nomen—honorable-warriors-with-ridged-foreheads—are the real model for the Star Trek Movie/TNG Klingons. Discuss. Well, look. In episode #21, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Kirk states that there are 12 Starships. In episode #35, The Doomsday Machine, we lose Constellation, and in episode #48, The Immunity Syndrome, we lose Intrepid. Hence, in episode #53, The Ultimate Computer, we are left with 10 Starships. SFTM has the second wave of Starships (including Defiant) being commissioned on stardate 3220, which is early in the 2nd season. Which makes sense if you want Defiant to be operational in time for the 3rd season. It is open to interpretation whether or not this second wave of ships is already flying by the time of The Ultimate Computer.
|
|
|
Post by blackbat242 on Mar 9, 2010 1:25:27 GMT -5
Well, look. In episode #21, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Kirk states that there are 12 Starships. Not quite correct. The exact quote is "There are only 12 like her in the fleet". Not 12 Starships... 12 Starships "like her" (Enterprise). The difference is that this implies other Starships that are "not like her"... which leaves lots of opening for less-capable, but more numerous ships that provide the defense & police coverage while the "12 like her" Starships are off showing the flag, handling crises, exploring strange new worlds, and having bar-fights with the crews of Klingon ships.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 9, 2010 9:13:17 GMT -5
Ah, I think I see where the basis some of the disagreement in this discussion lies. As I understand it, the term “Starship” is not a generic word, like “spaceship.” In TOS, Starship is the name of a specific class of Federation vessels, and is only ever used to refer specifically to Enterprise and those “like her”, i.e. what we might call (but TOS never does) a Federation Heavy Cruiser, Constitution-class. So when I say that there are only 12 Starships, that’s what I mean, and that’s why I use the term in a manner analogous to Battlestars. I’m not saying that the Federation doesn’t have any other offensive-capable spacecraft. As Merik says in Bread and Circuses, “He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a Starship. A very special vessel and crew. I tried for such a command.” Or as Stone says in Court Martial, “No Starship Captain has ever stood trial before, and I don’t want you to be the first.” I could go on, but in general I think you will find this usage borne out in TOS. The Making of Star Trek p. 163 quotes a memo from D.C. Fontana to Rodenberry which states: “We have, in the course of a season and a half, established that Star Fleet includes 12 ships of the starship class.” Whitfield and Rodenberry never refer to them as Heavy Cruisers, although they compare it once or twice to a cruiser in terms of size. Franz Joseph, of course, took that analogy and ran with it, when he wanted to add analogues of Destroyers and Scouts and Tugs and Dreadnoughts as well. Memory Alpha has a good article here, particularly the Background section, and as a whole it may shed some light on our understanding the role of these ships. Although the article ends by noting that “the term quickly fell into a more generic use,” this is vague (how quickly?), and I suggest this “generic” usage need not concern a TOS-based discussion. Regards.
|
|