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Post by gorillaspawn on Aug 13, 2011 19:22:00 GMT -5
I've been thinking lately about how the economy works in TOS. In the Next Generation it seems like replicators pretty much destroyed the value of precious metals and stones (though they invented a new liquid metal that couldn't be replicated to solve this). But in TOS despite Earth and Starfleet supposedly not using money, metals and gems still have value as evidenced in the episode "Mudd's Women" (I think it was called).
Thoughts? How does the economy of Earth work, or interplanetary trade?
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Post by blackbat242 on Aug 14, 2011 4:36:59 GMT -5
Well, they don't use money per se, but they do judge the value of things in credits... however it seems that the "money-less Federation" was a post-TOS invention.
This entry from the Star Trek Wiki is interesting (although some seems to be opinion rather than canon data):
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Post by finarvyn on Aug 14, 2011 10:42:16 GMT -5
I think that replicators still might not devalue certain items. For example, real emeralds are worth more than laboratory-grown ones. Also, we don't know if basic civilians have replicators or if they are still expensive and military-only types of things.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 14, 2011 22:28:39 GMT -5
In Castpaw, Kirk says that gemstones are worthless to him since he can manufacture his own. However, the fact that they are worthless to him doesn’t mean they are worthless. (Not everyone can manufacture their own?) And if they are worthless, that doesn’t mean that the concept of credit isn’t still in effect.
In a game, surely with rank comes more credit and access to more powerful/expensive (to make) equipment.
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Post by aramis on Aug 15, 2011 2:44:15 GMT -5
FASA Trek showed a pay scale for Federation officers in the Trader Captains & Merchant Princes book.
We see credits used in several episodes, and Kirk is VERY interested in what the Quatloo is valued as in Gamesters of Triskelion.
I suspect that the credit is not a tangible token, merely a federation work voucher of some kind, and I expect that Star Fleet personell are in fact paid some steady rate. I expect also the rank differences to be somewhat smaller than most modern militaries.
We also see Harry Mudd & Cyrano Jones pursuing wealth, so some measure of wealth must exist.
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Post by slortar on Aug 15, 2011 12:15:59 GMT -5
I can see it also depending a great deal on where you are in space. In the Federation core worlds, where there's easy access to Federation science/manufacturing facilities/goods, I see "credits" mattering less for daily survival/comfort. Nobody starves or lacks for medical attention and even the most rudimentary living quarters are probably really, really nice. Way out in the borderlands, where Mudd was, and not having that social net to back you up because civilization hasn't traveled that far yet...money might play a bigger role. Since most of the show takes place in the ass end of nowhere, it could explain how inconsistent the show was about money--the ship is capable of producing a Federation core world type of lifestyle, but many of the people they meet are not. I could see Federation personnel simultaneously not caring too much about money because where they're from, it's not terribly important or necessary, while at the same time needing something like that to deal with the locals. Just my two cents. The concept of money in Trek is always a bit of a puzzle.
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Post by apeloverage on Aug 26, 2011 10:47:29 GMT -5
Do they have the holodeck in the original series? I always thought it wouldn't make much sense for there to be any conflict between poeple who access to holodecks, since there's no such thing as resource scarcity - everyone can go live in a holodeck simulation.
They treat spending too much time on the holodeck as analagous to internet addiction. But that isn't a true comparison, because the holodeck is presented as being as 'real' as real life.
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Post by blackbat242 on Aug 26, 2011 21:10:23 GMT -5
No, there was no holodeck in TOS... they had "Rec rooms" where the crew interacted live, face-face, and in a physically-real setting.
You know, like actual biological organisms without electronic separation devices.
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Post by aramis on Aug 27, 2011 2:16:21 GMT -5
The FASA plans note that the arboretum and rec room can have holographic projections on the walls, but not a true holodeck in the TNG sense. Just a room that can show a much larger space convincingly than it actually has.
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Post by thedungeondelver on Nov 8, 2011 23:51:00 GMT -5
Old thread, I realize, but here's some non-canon thoughts about money that might help(?)... Kirk's comment about "manufacturing tons" (I think it was) of gemstones might have been less of the truth than he let on. While the Enterprise could certainly have turned its facilities to producing gems, doing so may not have been "snap-of-the-fingers" easy, and it may not have been terribly profitable to do so either ("we have to spend 2800 credits worth of raw materials to produce a 2000 credit gem"). Or it may not have been possible at all and may have been an attempt by Kirk to dismiss the bribery attempt. Kirk seems more than comfortable with money in "A Piece of the Action" although he has no want or need of it, he immediately grasps its use and says the Federation's "cut" should be funneled back into the planetary budget (stimulus package, anyone? ). Picard was nothing if not a high and mighty self righteous bald prig, so I always viewed his comment viz "Oh the pursuit of wealth" blah blah blah was less him saying "The universe is no longer get rich or die trying" than "Well SOME OF US don't do the whole monetary acquisition thing." and subtly trying to lay that template over everything the banker saw. Again, him just being self righteous and thinking "Hey, I need to defuse this guy's greed...aha, I'll tell him money is out of style, yes!"...because right on the heels of that, bam, Ferengi. Of course the writers of TNG made them buffoons if not outright villains for being all 1% on everyone. Cyrano Jones certainly didn't get nor give for free, either. I think there's *definitely* money. I think the writers of the show throughout its history wanted the characters, at least the captains, etc. to express themselves as being slightly better than worrying about the next paycheck. To step into the show itself, I think maybe a rule of conduct given to Starfleet personnel is: we'll take care of any and all basic needs you have, plus any wants within reason. Bev Crusher's "Bill it to my account" comment may have been part of an established procedure whereby Starfleet did a quick examination of local monetary systems, converted their standard to a commodity raw material on the planet in question, then produced x "dollars" per crewman (or were prepared to) then before leaving orbit they transferred that amount of commodity back to the planet's economic system where brokers would sell it and pay the vendors back. Money is there, it's real, and people use it. The underlying infrastructure of it may be different and weird but let's face it, 200 years from now "eugenics wars" or not nobody's gonna not try to make a buck somehow or the other.
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Post by finarvyn on Nov 13, 2011 10:25:11 GMT -5
In Castpaw, Kirk says that gemstones are worthless to him since he can manufacture his own. Maybe Kirk just said that in an attempt to get the upper hand. If your opponant thinks they have something that you want they have a certain edge, but by claiming it wasn't valuable Kirk shifted the power balance in his favor.
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Post by finarvyn on Nov 13, 2011 10:29:15 GMT -5
I think the writers of the show throughout its history wanted the characters, at least the captains, etc. to express themselves as being slightly better than worrying about the next paycheck. I've never been in the military, but I can imagine a shipboard economic system where crew could have pretty much what they wanted particularly if it could be replicated. I don't see crewman Jones dropping coins into a machine to get a meal or cup of coffee and it's possible that the assumption is that food, clothing, and other basic items are availible to crew whenever they want them. That doesn't mean that money can't exist outside of the ship, but only that maybe it's meaningless when shipboard.
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Post by Alex on Nov 15, 2011 17:29:51 GMT -5
In Castpaw, Kirk says that gemstones are worthless to him since he can manufacture his own. Maybe Kirk just said that in an attempt to get the upper hand. If your opponant thinks they have something that you want they have a certain edge, but by claiming it wasn't valuable Kirk shifted the power balance in his favor. No, I think he was being quite literal. We've had actual manufactured gemstones (synthetic diamonds, emeralds, sapphires, etc) for a couple decades. It was after TOS but it's a reality now. And it is extremely profitable. Look how cheap they can sell a lab emerald vs a true emerald.
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Post by gorillaspawn on Nov 16, 2011 20:25:50 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that in TOS they actually had replicators, but I could definitely see the possibility of physically manufacturing precious stones fairly cheaply. Not sure about precious metals. But then, what if a planet (or several) is discovered with an over abundance of certain metals? That might make the material far less valuable. I remember a news article on yahoo a few weeks back where astronomers think they may hae spotted a planet made almost entirely of diamond. Surely with planets like that floating around diamond would be worth much less even if they couldn't manufacture it. I suppose the flipside of the coin might be even if certain materials are very abundant in one area their relative scarcity in another might maintain their value. Metals like silver and gold for example might be plentiful on a few planets, and those planets become major sources in the sector, but in the big picture the material is still fairly scarce so it keeps value. Maybe "boom towns" form and gold is thrown around easily nearby, and in space stations nearby where there is entertainment, but they are dangerous places. People go there to get rich but are lucky to get out alive.
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Post by michaeltaylor on Jun 20, 2016 18:46:51 GMT -5
No, there was no holodeck in TOS... they had "Rec rooms" where the crew interacted live, face-face, and in a physically-real setting. memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/HolodeckThe concept of the holodeck originated in 1968, when Gene Roddenberry came up with the idea of a "simulated outdoor recreation area" on the Enterprise for the third season of Star Trek: The Original Series. This idea never came to fruition, probably because of budget constraints. (Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, p. 404) The idea was later used in the Star Trek: The Animated Series episode "The Practical Joker", which was basically the first appearance of the holodeck, then called a "recreation room". It never came to existence in live-action production until the pilot of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Its inclusion in that series was originally proposed by Robert Justman, who initially thought of and suggested it as a place where crew members could be "psychically connected" with their homeworld. (Starlog issue 115, p. 71)
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