|
Post by Falconer on Dec 17, 2010 11:58:15 GMT -5
Sweet. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by finarvyn on Dec 29, 2010 10:29:13 GMT -5
Very nice, and thanks for adding the expansion to the map. If I ever get really inspired, maybe I'll add my own little expansion to your ascii map. What I like to do is to expand the map by a couple of hexes to the "south" so that: 1. The Tholian Holdfast is totally enclosed (and spherical) 2. There is a tiny link between the Klingons and Romulans. This helps to explain how they trade tech without having to sneak though Federation or Tholian space.
|
|
|
Post by blackbat242 on Dec 29, 2010 23:22:59 GMT -5
A number of the Star Trek fiction novels/short stories set in the TOS era have the Romulans & Klingons sharing a border area composed of many systems (The Final Reflection, etc), resulting in periodic military raids, small border wars, etc.
This means it should not be a tiny corridor, as that would be so easy to defend as to prevent the kind of action described in those novels & short stories.
Later fiction, movies, and TV series also confirm this shared border.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Dec 30, 2010 6:45:45 GMT -5
A number of the Star Trek fiction novels/short stories set in the TOS era have the Romulans & Klingons sharing a border area composed of many systems (The Final Reflection, etc), resulting in periodic military raids, small border wars, etc. This means it should not be a tiny corridor, as that would be so easy to defend as to prevent the kind of action described in those novels & short stories. Later fiction, movies, and TV series also confirm this shared border. Tholia, in later series, is not where it was in the SFTM, but in SFB, it is where it was in the SFTM. intentionally changed, I believe. In order to discredit the SFTM.
|
|
|
Post by finarvyn on Dec 30, 2010 9:10:39 GMT -5
A number of the Star Trek fiction novels/short stories set in the TOS era have the Romulans & Klingons sharing a border area composed of many systems (The Final Reflection, etc), resulting in periodic military raids, small border wars, etc. This means it should not be a tiny corridor, as that would be so easy to defend as to prevent the kind of action described in those novels & short stories. Later fiction, movies, and TV series also confirm this shared border. Well, you could do that but (1) it requires a lot of new development, and (2) it changes somewhat the balance of power in the FedSpace game. My thought was simply to extend the map by a few hexes just to allow a corridor that the Federation didn't have direct control over. And I can never decide how "canon" those novels are, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by putraack on Jan 14, 2011 17:19:53 GMT -5
Both FS and F&E maps show a slice of neutral hexes between the Feds and the Tholians, through which the Klingons could ship stuff to the Romulans. The usual Neutral Zone treaties are that warships aren't allowed in, or are allowed in only in specific numbers. Diplomats and traders are certainly excepted. With a lot of stealth and guile, I don't see why the Klingon-Romulan Treaty (of Smarba in the SFU) couldn't have been pulled off. Who knows what role the Orions had in it all?
|
|
|
Post by finarvyn on Feb 3, 2011 7:50:02 GMT -5
True, but I imagine Tholia to not control much space, so it is simple enough to extend the hex map just a few hexes "south" to connect the Klingons and Romulins down there instead. Better than them sneaking through neutral zones ... bah!
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Jul 8, 2011 13:23:48 GMT -5
Just got a copy of Fed Space! I skimmed through the rulebook and looked at the map. Awesome!
|
|
|
Post by finarvyn on Jul 9, 2011 7:25:03 GMT -5
Glad you finally got one. I like FedSpace a lot more than F&E. I like the map better, I like the fact that there aren't as many rules, the game just seems more "user friendly" than F&E. I tinkered with more of a "hit point" model in combat, but haven't done anything with it in years. The idea is that instead of being "okay, half-dead, all dead" then you could have a bunch of smaller hits on a ship. Each would knock out a point of offense, shields, or motion. You have to keep track of more information but it's easier than actually playing SFB and it allows for more "role play" where a ship can actually withdraw without just getting crippled or destroyed. Anyway, a fun game!
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Jul 14, 2011 3:22:14 GMT -5
The F&E Combat system is much simpler to run than the FS one. While F&E feels more abstract, it's really about the same abstraction layer, just written by munchkin-aware rules lawyers (Cole & Petrick); FS is far less rules-lawyer-proofed.
|
|
|
Post by finarvyn on Jul 14, 2011 6:45:33 GMT -5
The F&E Combat system is much simpler to run than the FS one. While F&E feels more abstract, it's really about the same abstraction layer, just written by munchkin-aware rules lawyers (Cole & Petrick); FS is far less rules-lawyer-proofed. I had that general impression about the level of abstraction, but the rulebook sizes are part of what get me. FS has a somewhat thin rulebook while F&E's rules just seemed so heavy and the rulebook so thick. In addition, I liked the FS map better. F&E had neutral zones everywhere and I liked the idea that most empires hadn't negotiated NZ spaces. Makes the Federation a little more classy and the others a little more warlike. Having enjoyed FS so much, somehow reading F&E made me all glassy-eyed. At one point I owned 3 copies of F&E and finally sold them all, so I hope you don't convince me I made a mistake.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2011 11:29:00 GMT -5
I still think… …the Federation Space rulebook [is] only 16 pages, whereas the latest edition of Federation & Empire is 166 pages (not including expansions!). It’s like they have a corporate policy that more is better. Maybe it is, financially, I don’t know. You’ve got to have stuff to sell, that’s for sure. On the other hand, the “Monopoly” model seems to be pretty successful—a perpetually simple, perpetually stand-alone, perpetually unchanged game that is sold in every retail store in the world. Anyway, my point is that a 166-page rulebook is NOT an entry-level game. Not for boardgames, not for RPGs, not for wargames. This forces people like me to hunt down the original edition. I don’t mind a flawed game, because reasonable people can tinker with a game to mend the flaws.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Jul 14, 2011 17:46:18 GMT -5
Comparing the maps, side by side... (Finarvyn, you gave me an excuse to put them side by side... ) Federation and Empire Map ___________________ Fed Space map with Lyran Space added. , , , _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , , , , , , , , ___________ .- - - - - - - - • - - - - - - - - - • _- - - - - * - - - - * - - - - * - - - ____________ - - ? - • * * - - - - - • - - - - - - - - - - # - - * - - - - - - ¢ - - - - ___________ .- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - • - - _- * - - * - - - - - - - $ - - - - - - ____________ - - • - * * - - - - @ - - - - @ - - - - - - ¢ - - * - # - - @ - - - # - - - ___________ .• - - • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _¢ - - - * - - - - - $ - - - - * - * - ____________ • * - * * - - @ - - • - - • - - - * - - - @ - - - - * - - - # ¢ - - - - - - ___________ .- * - * • - - - - - - - - - - * - * - _- $ - # - * - - ¢ - ¢ - * - * - * - * ____________ - - - • - * - - - • - * - - * W * - - - - - - - - - * - $ * - - - - @ * - - ___________ .- - - - * - - - * - - * - - * - • - - _- - - - * - - - - - - * - * - - - # - ____________ - - • - - - * - - * - - • - • * - - - - - # - - - * - * ¢ * - - - - * - - ¢ ___________ .- - - - • - * - - - - - - * - - - - - _- - - * - - - $ - - - - * - ¢ - - - - , __________ - @ - • - * - - - - - - - - * - - • - * - * - - * - - - ¢ * - - - * - - ¢ - ,, _________ .- - # * - - • - • - - - • * • - * – – _- - - - - - - ¢ - - - - * - - # - - - , _________ - • - - * - - - - - - - - - * - - - • * - * - * - - - @ - - - ¢ - * - - - * ,, _________ . * - • - - - - - - @ - - # * - - - K - _- - - - - ¢ - - - - # - * ¢ - ¢ - $ - , _________ - - * - - • - - - • - - - - * • - # - - * - - - - - - $ - - - - - * - - - - ,, _________ .- • - - - - - - - - - • - * - - - - - _- - - # - $ - - - - - - * - - # - - - , _________ - - - - - - * - * - * - * - * • - • - - - - - - - * - * - * - * - * - * ¢ - ____________ .- - * - - - - - - • - - - - - * - - - _- * - ¢ - - - - - ¢ - - - - - - - * - ___________ - • - - • * - - * - * - * - * - * * • - - - - - * - * - * - * - * - * - - - ____________ .- - - - - - * - - - - - - - - - - - - _- - - - - - - - - - - - - ¢ - - * - - ___________ - - - • * • - - • - - - - • - - - - - * - ¢ * ¢ * - # - - - - - - # - - * ____________ .- - - - - * - - - - - - - - # - - - _- # - - - - - - - - - * - $ - - - - - ___________ - - - * - - - - - - - - - - - O - - - - - - * - * - - - - - - - - - - ¢ - - ____________ .- • - - * - - - • - - - • - - - - - - _* $ * - - - - - - - ¢ - - - ¢ - - - - ___________ * - * - - • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * - - * - ¢ * - - * - - * - - ____________ .* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _* - - - ¢ - - - - - - $ - - ¢ - - - - , _________ - - - * - - - - - - • - - - - • - - - # * - * - - - $ ¢ - - # - - - - - - - ,, _________ .@ * - - - # - - - - - @ - - • - - - - _@ * - - # - - - * - - @ # - * - - - # , _________ - - - * - - - • - - - - - • - - - - - # * - * - - - - - - - # - - ¢ - - - - ,, _________ .* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - , _________ - * - - * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * - - * - ¢ * - - * - - * - - ____________ .- - - - - - - - - • - • - - - - - - - _* - * - - - - - - - - - - $ - - - - - ___________ - - - * - * - - - - - - - - - - • - - - - - - ¢ * - - - - - - - - - - - - - ____________ .- - - - - - - - - - - - - - # - - - _- # - * - - - - - - $ * - - - - - - - ___________ - - • - - - * - • - - - • - - - - - - - - - - - - * ¢ # - - - - - - # - - * ____________ .- - - - * - - - - - - - - - • - - - - _- - - - * - - - ¢ - - - - ¢ - - * - - ___________ - - - # - - - * - * - - * - - - * - • - - * - - - - * - * - * - * - * - - * ____________ .- - - - - - - - - - - - - * - - * - - _- - - - - * - ¢ - - - - - - - - - - - ___________ - - - - - - * - - * * - • - - • - - - - - - - # - - * - * - * - * - * - * ¢ ____________ .- - - • - - - - - - - - - - - - # - - _- - - - - - - ¢ - * - - - - - - - - - , _________ - - - - - - - - - - * - - • - - - - - - - - - - * - - - - - * - # - - * - - ,, _________ .- - - - - - • - - * - - - - - - - - - _- * - - - - ¢ - - * ¢ - - - - - - - - , _________ - - - @ - - - - # - * - # - - - @ @ - - - - - - - - - # - - * - - - - @ @ - ,, _________ .- • - @ - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - _- - - - - @ - - - * - - - * - - @ - - , _________ - - - - - - - - - • * - - • - - - - - - - - - - - @ - * - - * - - - - - - - ,, _________ .- - - - - - - - - - * - - - - - • - - _- * - $ - - - - - * - - - - ¢ - - ¢ - , _________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - # - - - * - # - - - - - ,, _________ _- - - * - - - - - * - - - - - * ¢ - - , _________ - empty hex - - - - - * - * - * - * - * - ¢ - - - ,, _________ • planet _- - ¢ - - - - - - - ¢ - - - * - - - - , _________ * BATS - - - - * - * - * - - * - * - - * - * ____________ # Starbase _- # - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ___________ ¢ minor Planet - - - * - * - - - - - - - - * - ¢ - - ____________ $ major Planet _- - - - - - - # - ¢ - # ¢ - - - - - - ___________ @ Capital Planet ¢ - * - * - - - - - - - - - - * - - - ___________ ? Hyrdan Old Colonies Planet _- - - - - - - - - * - - - - - - - - - ___________ Hydran Federation Kzinti Gorn * * - * - - - - * $ - * - - - - * - - ___________ Romulan Klingon Lyran Lyran _- - - - - # - - - @ - $ - # - - - - - ___________ Tholian ISC WYN Starcluster - - - * - - - - * - - * - - - - * - - ___________ _- - - - - - - - ¢ * - - - - - - - - - ___________ Neutral Zone ,,, _ _ _ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ___________
The FS map showing the WYN doesn't quite match the fluff text. The F&E map shapes more closely match the drawings in the SFB & PD rulebooks, and the SFTM. I agree, the neutral zones are a bit much, but I also like the (not shown on the ascii maps above) inclusion of provinces on the F&E map. The Combat system, however, for FS is much slower than F&E. That was a major improvement, in F&E, and it can be backported to FS pretty easily The F&E combat system is very simple at it's core. Here's the core of it, simplified for use with FS 1d6(+mods) x 10% of offense is done to opposing side, distributed as the recipient wishes. Round down, but a 6+ roll always does at least 1 point. Damage is done to defense factors: Damage points equal to Def criples a good ship, or kills a crippled ship. Each side may pick one target a round for directed damage: that one target gets hit, but it takes 2x the normal DP to stage it. A single ship may be in "formation" - that ship can only be targeted with 3x normal rather than 2x normal. Excess damage may be retained and added to the next round's total. If you want to use maulers: A mauler allows directed damage at 1x for the first 10 points, or at 2x to the formation ship. Flagships: the flagship says how many other ships can be there, and changes round to round if need be; the rest are in reserve and don't fight. Carriers as flagships get escorts plus the listed. DN's and CVA's 10 CC & BC's: 9 CA: 8 CL:7 DD: 5 FF: 3 (If you have the master ship list from Captain's, it includes the command ratings for all ships...)
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2011 22:14:51 GMT -5
The Combat system, however, for FS is much slower than F&E. That was a major improvement, in F&E, and it can be backported to FS pretty easily The F&E combat system is very simple at it's core. Here's the core of it, simplified for use with FS NOW you’re talking. A printout of F&E-style patches to FS, numbering 1-2 pages, sounds totally fine to me.
|
|
|
Post by aramis on Jul 15, 2011 2:11:11 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot one unit in FS that you need rules for: the Fed Scout. If using Expansion 1, you'll need counters for the Kzin scouts.
the side with the most scouts gets a +1 to it's roll AND imposes a -1 to the opponent. The first scout in a fleet doesn't count against command limits. If being totally a completionist, count scout channels, instead of scout ships. (This means the Fed Scout is worth 2+ of anybody else's... takes 3 Kz FFS to match it
And for the intensity... At start of battle, each side sets an intensity from 0 to 2; total both intensities, and add that total to both sides' rolls. Maximum intensity is 4. If not specified before it's 0. It goes up after round 4 of combat, by 1 (still maximum 4).
Intensity is how you get up to 100% of your attack value in damage points.
Bases: Against a base, if the base is the fleet (including the flagship), the base's opponent picks the intensity anywhere from 0-4. If the base is in the reserve, intensity is normal. Bases can't retreat, either, but that's already in the FS rules.
Fighters: Use the fighter counters as is... Remembering that the get replaced at the end of the game turn, not the combat round...
I believe I just consolidated some 15 pages of nitpick down to a half-page of simple to understand text...
|
|