Star Trek and space combat

[finarvyn]

Okay, so this comes from a thread on Dragonsfoot and I think that there is a better chance of getting a correct answer here than there.
The thread, if you are curious: dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78638

A ways into the conversation, a poster said this:

The main problem I see with Star Trek ship combat isn't the sensor range, but the firing arcs. From the beginning, the main weaponry in Star Trek could fire 360 degrees around the ship.

And my reply went something like this:

I get what you are saying here, but I'm not sure this is a canon conclusion. All of the TOS episodes that I can recall watching showed phasers and photon torpedoes being fired more-or-les forward.

Is there an example of a TOS screenshot showing a backward shot with a phaser or photon torpedo? I can re-check my Franz Joseph ST Technical Manual to see if they give details, but the earliest that I can recall seeing anything about a 360o phaser would be the Command Cruiser from SFB and the Federation Space boardgame.

I'm pretty sure that the early Trek movies (perhaps Wrath of Khan?) showed some photon torpedoes being shot directly backwards between the warp nacelles, but that wouldn't be "from the beginning" in my estimation.

Maybe someone else has a better memory about this than I do... :?

So, my question is: does anyone know if/when TOS canon established firing arcs of phaser banks? Anyone have anything to add here?

[starcruiser]

I know there was at least one episode where they mention phasers in other places (aft phasers, port phasers) but, it would take quite a while to dig through scripts to find them.

Other than the classic Franz Joseph Tech Manual and Blueprints (semi-officialish), there is nothing in writing that says so. If you look at Matt Jefferies' art, he only points out the "Main Phasers" and "Photon Torpedo" locations foward but...if there are main phasers..?

[aramis]

Nov 26, 2017 21:26:41 GMT -5 starcruiser said:

I know there was at least one episode where they mention phasers in other places (aft phasers, port phasers) but, it would take quite a while to dig through scripts to find them.

took 30 seconds using google.

Arena, Ep 19, "CREWMAN [OC]: Aft phaser to Bridge. Alert status. All weapons at operational ready."

[vulcanridr]

My main problem with starship combat in Star Trek is the fact that most all of the combat would be beyond visual range, not unlike the combat in the Honor Harrington books. The Reliant flying over the Enterprise's primary hull at point blank range, while visually appealing, wouldn't be terribly realistic. The ships would be shooting from far beyond visual range. In 2367, the range of Federation photon torpedoes was slightly below 300,000 kilometers. (TNG: "The Wounded"). At 300,000 km, even a 1600 m star destroyer would look, at best, like a pinprick of light. There would be no reason to allow the enemy to close to point blank range.

[starcruiser]

Actually - in TOS - most combat does take place at extreme ranges (thousands to tens of thousands of KMs).

The movies and some later productions have "compromised" that for dramatic effect...

[vulcanridr]

Mar 17, 2018 9:58:33 GMT -5 starcruiser said:

Actually - in TOS - most combat does take place at extreme ranges (thousands to tens of thousands of KMs).

Thinking of TOS episodes that had combat, there is the Ultimate Computer (with original SFX) vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/2/29/Constitutions_formation.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051223022703&path-prefix=en, the Doomsday machine (new graphics) www.kethinov.com/images/startrek/TOS2x06i.png

Think of modern combat. In aircraft, they may fly in close formation, but prior to engaging, they go to "combat spread." And with wet navy ships, they spread out, especially in nuclear environments, or in a missile environment. They stay close enough together to provide mutual support, but not nearly as close as the ships in The Ultimate Computer.

[starcruiser]

Well, remember that in Ultimate Computer, the original effects didn't actually show that much of the battle itself. Only the approach of the squadron and then a few intermittent scenes that didn't show the ships close enough to see them all.

In Doomsday Machine, Decker was obsessed with engaging the DM at point blank range on purpose. He thought his mistake before was engaging from too far away to effect the DM.

[starcruiser]

Oh... And WHAT IS GOING ON?!?

There's more activity here than I've seen in years...

[vulcanridr]

Mar 18, 2018 10:27:07 GMT -5 starcruiser said:

Well, remember that in Ultimate Computer, the original effects didn't actually show that much of the battle itself. Only the approach of the squadron and then a few intermittent scenes that didn't show the ships close enough to see them all.

True. And the entire point of it is that space battles make for awful TV. Phasers and photons shooting at nothing the viewer can see.

In Doomsday Machine, Decker was obsessed with engaging the DM at point blank range on purpose. He thought his mistake before was engaging from too far away to effect the DM.

I can see that, but see also The Enterprise Incident. When the Romulans surrounded the Enterprise, it was all in the same frame, therefore, a couple of ship lengths apart.

Oh... And WHAT IS GOING ON?!?

There's more activity here than I've seen in years...

I just ran across this site again for the first time in a couple of years. And I couldn't not comment on Star Trek Continues.
It's all I can do not to compare Star Trek combat with Honor Harrington.

--vr
"The more they over think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."
--Montgomery Scott
Star Trek III

[Starbeard]

The Writer’s Guide that was written for the second season has this (the part about detonations would turn into the torpedo weaponry):

SHIP'S WEAPONRY
The main weaponry of the U.S.S. Enterprise is its banks of "ship's phasers", which are artillery-sized versions of the hand phaser and phaser pistol. From the Bridge, phaser power can be aimed in any direction and our Optical Effect here is "blips" or "squirts" of blue phaser fire, which are emitted from the top or bottom of the saucer section of the vessel. These can act directly against target very much as hand phaser fire, but on a much larger scale. Phaser fire can also be set for proximity explosion and act somewhat like "depth charges".
The Helmsman, Mr. Sulu, acts as weapons officer, under the Captain's direction, he coordinates the fire from the phaser rooms, using the vessel's navigational aids to lock the phasers on target and, on the Captain's order, engaging the circuits which fire these weapons.

[cheimison]

Late to the party here, but the firing orientation of an advanced spaceship is basically irrelevant. A very primitive (by Trek standards) spacecraft could rotate its orientation by use of gyroscopes buried in the body, enabling it to orient itself in any direction very quickly (in seconds) for very little power expenditure. For something with the gravity control, em control and propulsion power (thousands of Gs, at least) of the Enterprise it wouldn't matter if the phaser bank was an enormous gun welded to the saucer section, it could almost instantaneously aim it in any direction.

If there's anything unbelievable about Star Trek's combat (aside from the occasional close range fight and questionable physics in general) it's that human beings could possibly move and think fast enough to be effective with such powerful and precise weapons. As the Computers of Star Trek pointed out years ago a 'real' starship with that kind of power would almost certainly have to rely on computers for navigation, much less combat, as no human could ever process information or physically respond in time to avoid annihilation. But while I am the kind of hard sci-fi nerd who does like 'computers do everything, go sleep on your couch, Worf' settings it would certainly be a different show if they'd gone that direction. Like much science fiction Star Trek is more about 'Horatio Hornblower in SPAAAAACE' than actual science-based fiction.